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The Afterlives of Shabbatai Zvi: A Lecture on the Memory of Heresy

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The Afterlives of Shabbatai Zvi: A Lecture on the Memory of Heresy

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YIVO Institute for Jewish Research

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November 18, 2018
YIVO Institute for Jewish Research

Jacob Kronhill Visiting Scholar Lecture

In this lecture, David Biale examines the way 19th and 20th century authors remembered the Sabbatian movement, the great heretical explosion in the Jewish world of the 17th and 18th centuries. Contrary to the impression Gershom Scholem gave, Sabbatianism and especially the figure of Shabbatai Zvi was well known to modern authors, who often exploited the heretical messiah for their own heretical and secular agendas.

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Transcript

00:00

good afternoon everyone hi I'm Ben

00:05

Kaplan education administrator here at

00:07

Evo and it's my great pleasure to

00:12

introduce this afternoon's speaker David

00:15

Beale has been in residence with us as

00:17

our visiting Jacob Crone he'll visiting

00:19

scholar this fall it's been really a

00:22

pleasure to have him here at Evo he is

00:25

the Emmanuel ring Blum distinguished

00:27

professor of Jewish history at the

00:29

University of California Davis and he's

00:31

the author of numerous books most

00:34

recently haast ism a new history and

00:37

it's really a distinct pleasure for us

00:39

to have this visiting professorship

00:42

we're very grateful to the Crone Hill

00:44

platica foundation for funding it it

00:47

gives us a TiVo the opportunity to have

00:49

such distinguished scholars like David

00:51

here every year and having him here just

00:55

not only to give this lecture and to

00:58

teach the class he's been teaching this

00:59

fall a seminar on hostile ism

01:02

based on the new history that he

01:04

recently wrote but just also to have him

01:07

here in New York to chat with us to

01:10

advise to share with us his his great

01:14

learning and wisdom it's been really

01:17

really a treat so I want to thank him

01:20

for everything he's done and thank you

01:23

all for coming and I hope you enjoyed

01:24

the lecture

01:25

David bill thanks

01:28

[Applause]

01:31

well thank you very much Ben it really

01:34

is a great pleasure to be here at Evo

01:37

this fall and in a very grateful to

01:40

Jonathan Brent the director of Evo and

01:43

to the crow Neil foundation Irene

01:48

plitvicka for making this opportunity

01:50

available to me to be here and to

01:53

interact with the extraordinary holdings

01:56

here in the Evo Library and archive and

02:00

also to work with this astonishingly

02:04

great staff like Ben Kaplan Eddie

02:07

Portnoy Alex Weiser it's really they're

02:10

a real treasure and are doing a fabulous

02:13

job I think in moving Evo really into

02:16

the 21st century

02:17

so this lecture is a part of a larger

02:20

project in which I examine how Jews have

02:23

imagined and reinterpreted historical

02:26

heresies the biblical figure of Korah

02:30

the rabbinical heretic Alicia Benna

02:32

booyah Jesus of Nazareth Baruch Spinoza

02:35

and our subject today the after lives of

02:38

shop tights feet now in his book the

02:41

heretical imperative the sociologist

02:44

Peter Berger argued that modernity

02:46

characterized as it is by a plurality of

02:49

choices necessarily embraces heresy for

02:52

heresy as one of its meanings in Greek

02:55

suggests means to choose in the modern

02:59

period we including those who choose to

03:01

follow religious tradition are all

03:04

heretics Berger contrasts the world of

03:07

tradition with modernity in the

03:09

following terms quote for modern man

03:12

heresy is a possibly for pre-modern man

03:16

heresy is a possibility

03:18

usually a rather remote one for modern

03:20

man heresy typically becomes a necessity

03:23

or again modernity creates a new

03:27

situation in which picking and choosing

03:28

becomes an imperative unquote

03:31

in this light moderns may feel compelled

03:34

to reevaluate the heretics from their

03:36

historical tradition nevertheless the

03:40

recovery of historical hair

03:41

artx was rarely a simple process of

03:44

inversion in which the heretic simply

03:46

took the place of the Orthodox instead

03:49

heresy required redefinition to fit

03:53

modern needs rather than fully embracing

03:56

its heretics as Berger's argument

03:58

suggests modern Jewish culture often

04:01

celebrated them but only after

04:03

reinterpreting the meaning of their

04:05

heresies this reinterpretation is part

04:09

of the process by which modernity

04:11

defined itself in one of his earliest

04:15

diary entries dated just before the

04:18

outbreak of world war one the future

04:20

historian of Messianic heresy Gershom

04:23

Scholem describes a trip to the Swiss

04:25

Alps there he engaged in a series of

04:28

romantic meditations which include a

04:31

reference to Shub height see who he says

04:34

astonished people by going into the

04:36

marketplace and E's mirror and

04:38

pronouncing the four-letter name of God

04:41

despite the popular belief that he

04:43

should have been struck by lightning

04:45

nothing happened

04:46

says Sholem show amuses this historical

04:49

anecdote is a rather surprising way of

04:51

demonstrating the deluge deluded nature

04:54

of the Jewish people who cannot

04:56

recognize the metaphysical meaning of

04:59

the grandeur and beauty of the high

05:00

mountains whatever this obscure text and

05:03

it is quite obscure may have actually

05:05

meant to him one has the distinct

05:08

feeling that Sholem is comparing himself

05:09

to Shubb heights v a comparison that

05:12

gained some support from a diary entry

05:16

less than a year later in which he

05:18

claims to be the messiah how and what

05:21

did show them know about subtext v in

05:23

1914 he certainly might have encountered

05:27

him in Heinrich Greta's history the the

05:30

history of the Jews which is he tells us

05:32

in his memoirs he already read in 1911

05:35

after an extensive treatment of burro

05:37

Spinoza Gretz terms to Schwab heights

05:40

fee of whose movement Spinoza seems to

05:44

have been aware and who died only a year

05:46

after the excommunicated philosopher I'm

05:49

quoting now from Gretz without dreaming

05:51

of its vanozza possess

05:53

in the east an ally diametrically his

05:55

opposite who worked hard for the

05:58

destruction of Judaism and succeeded in

06:01

throwing the whole Jewish race into a

06:03

turmoil which caused them for a long

06:06

while to become the victims of a

06:07

delusion shop tights fee who was at once

06:10

Spinoza's opposite and a lie and he

06:14

possessed many more admirers than the

06:16

philosopher of amsterdam became for a

06:18

space the idol of the Jewish race and

06:21

has secret adherents even to this

06:23

present time unquote it would be

06:26

interesting to know whom Gretz had in

06:29

mind when he refers to the secret

06:31

adherents until the present time he

06:34

doesn't say but he certainly seems to

06:37

have taken sabbatarian ism very

06:38

seriously as a historical subject as

06:41

shaolin would claim 3/4 of a century

06:44

later sabaton ism was not a fringe

06:47

phenomenon but rather a movement with as

06:51

Gretz puts it many more admirers than

06:54

the philosopher of amsterdam and the

06:57

idol of the jewish race so what i wish

07:02

to argue in this lecture is that chub

07:04

tights fee was in the air in many

07:06

different forms in the late 19th and

07:08

early 20th centuries in the first

07:11

sentence of his great essay from 1937

07:13

redemption through sin Sholem says that

07:16

i'm quoting here no chapter in the

07:19

history of the Jewish people during the

07:21

last hundred years has been as shrouded

07:23

in mystery as that of the Sabbat e'en

07:26

movement unquote despite the common

07:29

belief today cultivated in part by

07:31

Sholem himself that he rescued the

07:33

savage e'en movement from obscurity and

07:36

turned it into the major watershed

07:39

between the Jewish Middle Ages and

07:41

modernity there was a rich historical

07:44

and imaginative literature about savety

07:47

anism available in German Yiddish Hebrew

07:50

and English which show them when Sholem

07:52

was a young man in his biography of

07:56

Shabtai see from in Hebrew 1957 English

07:59

1973

08:01

Sholem refers occasionally in passing

08:03

this literature and generally dismisses

08:06

it as historically worthless an

08:08

accusation that is accurate

08:10

if exaggerated but regardless of their

08:13

historical validity these novels

08:15

biographies and essays created a climate

08:18

of interest in savety anism that must

08:20

have caught the young Colin's attention

08:23

and suggested certain themes for his

08:25

later investigations now Sabbatini ISM I

08:29

think functioned as a kind of cultural

08:32

code for authors working on the borders

08:34

between Judaism and modernity as a

08:37

projection back into the 17th century of

08:40

modern problems of Jewish identity and

08:43

assimilation the most interesting

08:46

literature of the fantasy ECLA period

08:48

was neither Pro nor anti Sabbat Ian

08:51

instead these works often involve

08:53

ambiguities that point in suggestive

08:56

ways to the ambivalence of their authors

08:58

towards a whole host of contemporary

09:01

issues rabbinical Authority heresy

09:04

conversion messianism

09:06

and secularism among others one issue

09:10

that I want to address in particular is

09:12

Sabaton ism as a vehicle for

09:14

constructing a kind of Jewish

09:16

Orientalism at a time when the Orient

09:19

was exerting a particularly complex

09:21

fascination on Jews as I'll try to show

09:24

ambivalence about the Jewish orient

09:26

captured many of the other ambivalences

09:29

of these writers about contemporary

09:31

Jewish culture it is in this the context

09:34

of this Jewish Orientalism that I also

09:36

want to situate the young Shalom's

09:38

fascination with savety anism

09:40

a context quite different from where he

09:43

is usually situated now the whole

09:46

history of Jewish Orientalism remains to

09:49

be written although is Marsh or Paul

09:51

Mendes floor and most recently John

09:53

Efron have sketched out aspects of it

09:56

while Jewish attitudes often resemble

09:59

those of other Europeans Jewish

10:01

treatments of the Orient were

10:02

complicated by several factors Jewish

10:05

Orientalism as opposed to non-jewish

10:08

involved constructing an object which

10:10

was also in some sense one's own self

10:14

the subject which was doing the

10:16

constructing those who imagine a Jewish

10:19

orient were always conscious of the fact

10:21

that they themselves were being imagined

10:24

by non-jews as Orientals

10:26

if the Orient became a classic site for

10:29

projecting or imagining the other as for

10:33

example Edward Sayid are you Jewish

10:35

Orientalism involved a complex dialectic

10:38

of projection and displacement of

10:40

oneself onto an object that was never

10:43

really other when Zionism er emerged as

10:48

both a political and settlement movement

10:50

the question of the Orient took on great

10:52

urgency Zionist Orientalism undoubtedly

10:55

indebted to both European and Jewish

10:57

Orientalism of the 19th century

11:00

developed its own peculiar dynamic

11:03

especially once European Zionists

11:05

confronted real oriental Jews such as

11:08

the Yemenites when they came to settle

11:10

in the Land of Israel

11:12

since the Zionists proposed to take the

11:14

Jews out of Europe and back to the

11:16

Middle East ambivalence about becoming

11:19

once again Levantine turned into a

11:21

touchstone for the tension in early

11:24

Zionism between Eurocentric modernism on

11:27

the one hand and anti-european anti

11:30

modernism on the other if that makes

11:33

sense was i inocent be a part of the

11:36

Orient or was it to be a movement of

11:38

European modernity projected on to the

11:40

Middle East and more specifically in

11:43

terms of our theme how might scientism

11:45

relate to the sava Cian movement as a

11:48

precursor or as a cautionary tale the

11:53

role of the Orient as the birthplace of

11:55

sabaton ISM and the relationship between

11:57

the 17th century movement and Zionism

12:00

are both evident in Joseph Kosh Stein's

12:04

vivid biography cheb tights vie their

12:07

messiahs from Izmir published in Germany

12:11

in 1930 Cashman was an ardent Zionist

12:15

and the author of a series of popular

12:17

histories written in a passionate and at

12:20

times fictionalized mode although Sholem

12:23

dismissed

12:24

Josh Stein's shop tights V as a little

12:26

more than a novel

12:27

cuz sense by a bibliography Canute's

12:30

many of the sources in hebrew and

12:32

european languages from the time of the

12:34

events in other words he did real

12:35

historical research according to Castine

12:39

the movements attraction for Jews in the

12:41

East that is boast both Eastern Europe

12:44

and the Orient had to do with oriental

12:47

irrationalism Western Jews on the other

12:50

hand were drawn to the movement by two

12:52

contradictory impulses a kind of

12:55

rationalism can connected with respect

12:58

for written reports and the enchantment

13:01

of the exotic car Stein is describing a

13:05

kind of 17th century Jewish Orientalism

13:08

as the source for Western Sabbatini

13:10

anism in the 20th century the Orient

13:13

still represented the exotic as it did

13:15

in the 17th but knowledge of the Orient

13:17

mediated through the written word that

13:19

is cosh Stein's own book gives this

13:22

exotic ism a veneer of rational

13:24

respectability

13:26

despite the impression of passage like

13:28

this might leave Kashtan was not at all

13:31

hostile to Sabatini ism in fact his

13:34

attitude was generally quite sympathetic

13:36

since he saw Abbot Ian ISM as a

13:39

legitimate response to Jewish

13:41

homelessness Sabatini ISM especially in

13:44

its Western European incarnations he

13:47

says was essentially political among the

13:50

political responses in the West to

13:52

sabotage anism he includes Spinoza's

13:55

famous so-called zionist passage in his

13:59

theological theological political

14:03

treatise published in 1670 and thus only

14:06

a few years after the Sabbath Ian's

14:08

movement according to Spinoza Jewish

14:11

sovereignty might in fact be restored

14:14

under the proper political constellation

14:17

now we know that Spinoza was aware of

14:19

the 17 movement but it's unclear whether

14:22

he was in fact commenting on Sabbath

14:24

Ian's ISM in this famous passage in

14:27

connecting Spinoza with 70 anism in this

14:30

positive sense Carr Stein turned greta's

14:34

Association of the two on its head

14:36

where Gretz had seen Spinoza as the

14:38

positive mirror image

14:40

subtities the rationalists versus the

14:43

irrationalist cash man brought them

14:45

together under the category of politics

14:47

for cash Stein Spinoza understood the

14:50

import of sabbatarian ISM politically as

14:53

an insight that deserves some comment

14:56

following Sholem much of the work on

14:59

Sabbath e'en ISM is focused primarily on

15:01

its mystical ideas and less on the

15:04

overtly political side of the movement

15:06

such as the persistent use of royal

15:08

titles for chub Knights fee and the way

15:10

the movement unfolded within the

15:12

political relations between the Ottoman

15:14

Jewish communities and the Turkish state

15:17

interestingly this fruitful direction

15:20

for research was anticipated by some of

15:22

the literature the Chilam dismissed such

15:24

as cosh Stein's novel which focused much

15:27

more on the political than on the

15:29

mystical for a secular Jew like hush

15:32

Stein and one might at Sholem himself

15:34

Sabbatini ism was a precursor of the

15:37

modern revolt against rabbinic legalism

15:41

the failure of sabbatarian ISM was a

15:43

failure of its leader for cash Stein who

15:46

is not himself transformed by this great

15:48

experience

15:49

he never truly transcended the religion

15:51

against which he rebelled in a sense

15:54

Josh Stein holds that Sabbath e'en ISM

15:57

was not radical enough it did not

16:00

address the universal desire for

16:02

redemption quote the fundamental fact

16:04

that a whole world wished to become

16:06

reconciled with its God and its own

16:08

existence unquote this desire for

16:10

redemption continued to echo weekly in

16:13

movements like Hasidism and Zionism but

16:16

it succeeded in neither writing in 1930

16:20

cos Stein who as I mentioned was a

16:22

Zionist and ended up emigrating to

16:25

Palestine in 1935 nevertheless declared

16:29

that quote in Zionism which was an

16:31

attempt at a partial solution on the

16:34

plane of reality redemption met with

16:36

defeat unquote in fact a number of early

16:40

Zionists writers such as Shia shuvits

16:43

drew explicit comparisons between

16:45

Theodor Herzl and sub-types fee and thus

16:49

between Zionism and Sabatini anism

16:52

hertzel himself was evidently

16:54

uncomfortable with such associations

16:56

although he devoted relatively little

16:58

attention to his ostensibly

17:00

seventeenth-century forerunner at one

17:03

point in his diary Herzl says quote the

17:06

difference between shab tights feet and

17:07

myself is that he made himself great to

17:11

be like the great ones of the world

17:12

whereas I find the great just as small

17:15

as I am unquote this is a rather

17:17

enigmatic entry given hurt souls

17:19

megalomania attested in other places in

17:22

the Diaries more decisive statement of

17:26

his position on Sabbath Ian's ISM and

17:28

one more relevant for our purposes can

17:30

be found in his utopian novel out Noland

17:33

when his two protagonists returned to

17:37

Palestine after 20 years on a desert

17:39

island

17:40

they toured the now thriving Jewish

17:42

utopia at one point their host proposed

17:45

attending one of the cultural offerings

17:47

of the colony the choices are as follows

17:51

the play about Moses at the National

17:53

Theatre which they reject as to

17:56

pietistic several popular Yiddish forces

18:00

which they dismisses beneath them and an

18:03

opera about subtypes fee advertised as

18:06

quote the most beautiful of all modern

18:08

Jewish operas curious about this figure

18:11

about whom they claim ignorance they are

18:13

told quote subtypes fee was a false

18:15

messiah who appeared in Turkey at the

18:17

beginning of a 17th century it's got the

18:20

date wrong he succeeded in gathering a

18:23

great following among oriental Jews but

18:26

later he became a Moslem and met asari

18:28

in unquote the visit visitors declare

18:31

the perfect villain for an opera and off

18:33

the party goes to see the performance

18:35

this brief passage deserves some careful

18:38

attention the Opera about chef dicey

18:41

stands culturally somewhere between the

18:43

pious high religion represented by the

18:46

theatrical treatment of Moses and the

18:49

low culture of the OU student

18:51

represented by the Yiddish forces in

18:53

light of Herzl 's dismissal of religion

18:56

on the one hand and his patronizing

18:58

attitude towards the O student the

19:01

Eastern European Jews only the theme of

19:03

a messianic movement

19:05

said to have national significance the

19:08

Opera treats the theme out of Jewish

19:10

history whose value Herzl suggests is as

19:13

a cautionary tale about the pitfalls

19:15

design him Zionism must avoid although

19:19

initially sincere Shabtai became a

19:21

villain as the mob began to follow him

19:24

here is an example of Herzl zone

19:26

ambivalence about leading a popular

19:28

movement his own theory of Zionism as a

19:31

vanguard suggest rather as kind of

19:33

elitism

19:35

unlike other contemporary treatments of

19:38

seventeen ism Herzl saw the movement is

19:40

primarily an oriental affair thus

19:43

implicitly contrasting it with his own

19:45

movement in one place in his Diaries

19:48

Herzl insists that while 17 ism was

19:50

based on utopian fantasy his movement

19:53

will succeed because quote we have

19:55

machines unquote that is Western

19:57

technology for the Jews of the Middle

20:00

Ages only fantasies based on charismatic

20:03

figures might inspire action while in

20:05

modern times when the people are able

20:08

quote to gauge its own strength

20:10

unquote miracles and charismatic leaders

20:12

would no longer be needed here once

20:15

again we encounter a certain ambivalence

20:16

on Herzl sparked about his own status as

20:19

a charismatic leader

20:21

despite Herzl explicit distancing from

20:24

Sabbath e'en ISM expressed in his

20:26

narrative description of the movement

20:29

the capsule libretto of his fictional

20:31

opera tells a somewhat different story

20:33

Shabtai is persecuted by a choir of

20:36

angry rabbis but quote his strong

20:39

personality charmed even his opponents

20:41

and they fell back before him here Herzl

20:44

may have in mind his own controversies

20:46

with Orthodox authorities who opposed

20:49

his movement and in fact he suggests

20:51

that sensible pious views have rejected

20:54

the partisan rabbis and joined the

20:56

Zionist movement the Opera about

21:00

subtypes fee is the one of the only two

21:03

places in ALP Nolan were Hertz only

21:04

refers to oriental Jews the Eurocentric

21:08

character of Herzl Zionism is of course

21:11

no great surprise and he was not the

21:13

only one to suffer from a kind of blind

21:15

spot about the

21:16

until Jews weather or the Orientals

21:19

whether Jews or Arabs but his treatment

21:22

of Sabbath even is amiss designed to

21:24

contrast these backward Jews weather of

21:27

the Orient or elsewhere who believed in

21:28

miracles and were therefore swept up by

21:31

false messianism with an enlightened

21:33

modern movement based on technology the

21:37

Orient represented for Herzl was for

21:39

many other Western Jews religious

21:42

obscurantism and utopian thinking that

21:45

Zionism had to oppose the lack of any

21:49

identifiable oriental Jews in all

21:51

Toyland as opposed to the presence of

21:53

enlightened pro-zionist Arabs suggests

21:56

that Herzl proposed to ignore rather

21:59

than to modernize the real Jews in the

22:01

Middle East in all Norlin subtypes fees

22:05

finest moment comes when a young girl

22:08

who is his disciple tries to defend him

22:10

in a grand Aria and is attacked by the

22:13

rabbi's in a great rage the Prophet then

22:16

returns to save her and she follows him

22:18

after the rabbi's banning him from

22:20

Smyrna at this point Friedrich the

22:24

character who might be called the Herzl

22:25

alter ego in ALP Nolan stops following

22:28

the Opera when he spies the now decrepit

22:31

woman he had been in love with 20 years

22:33

earlier and as a result of whose

22:35

betrayal he had left Europe the contrast

22:38

between the manly charismatic sham

22:40

tights fee and the jilted Friedrich is

22:42

clear the European Jew cannot find his

22:45

erotic fulfillment in Europe for the

22:48

woman of his youthful dreams will turn

22:50

into a middle-aged hag only by the end

22:52

of the novel does Friedrich find true

22:54

romantic fulfillment and Miriam the

22:57

daughter of the Jewish colony in the

22:58

Orient in his fictional opera about shop

23:02

tights feet Herzl never exploits the

23:04

erotic possibilities of Sabaton ISM the

23:07

young female disciple is described only

23:10

as following Shabtai and not as his

23:12

romantic partner in this chaste

23:15

presentation presentation Herzl may in

23:18

fact be suggesting his own repressed

23:20

ambivalence toward the erotic energies

23:23

inherent and leading a great political

23:25

movement

23:26

yet hurts those avoidance of explicit

23:29

eroticism left him very much in the

23:31

minority in for most of the writers

23:34

about subtit from our period focuses

23:37

disproportionate attention on the erotic

23:40

and not surprisingly on eros is linked

23:43

to the Orient for Jewish orientalists

23:47

the Sabbat e'en movement provided a rich

23:49

opportunity for imagining or oriental

23:52

errata sysm within the traditional

23:55

jewish world this opportunity was a

23:57

result of the stories that circulated

24:00

already in the 17th century about

24:02

subtypes fees marriages the first to

24:09

unconsummated and the third to the

24:11

mysterious Sarah who some accounts claim

24:14

was a Polish orphan of the minutes keepo

24:16

grooms in ukraine and who had pursued an

24:20

adventurous and promiscuous life before

24:22

marrying Shabtai in egypt the figure of

24:26

sarah allowed authors to conflate the

24:28

east of Europe with the Near East thus

24:31

for example Christine calls this quote

24:33

eccentric erotic and uncommonly vital

24:37

creature a child of the east

24:39

unquote Josh Stein claims that the

24:41

rabbinical response to Sarah's eroticism

24:43

was similar to that of the Christian

24:46

witch trials but it never reached quite

24:48

the same extreme the Christians quote

24:51

hated eros and stifled the weird

24:53

sensations provoked by witches by

24:56

putting them to death the Jewish rabbis

24:58

and scholars were also afraid of arrows

25:00

but they tried to circumvent it by

25:02

sublimating its influence unquote in any

25:06

event Shabtai himself was never tempted

25:08

by the in Custance presentation never

25:12

tempted by sarah's seductions and he

25:15

argues quite implausibly that he no more

25:17

consummated this third marriage than he

25:20

had the previous two for christine the

25:22

spirit of the orient was ascetic and

25:25

Shabtai in this account never gives in

25:27

personally to the erotic however sarah

25:31

instigates orgies and has relations with

25:34

shoved eyes young followers

25:35

she also agitates for equality of women

25:38

at

25:39

a stable and in the reading of the Toro

25:41

at her instigation and as a tactic for

25:44

gaining power shot I adopted a

25:46

proto-feminist position

25:48

freeing women from the curse of Eve as a

25:52

result says Christine women took an

25:54

active part in the movement quote as

25:56

sometimes happens in the case of

25:58

revolutions when feminine instinct added

26:01

to the deliberations and motives of men

26:03

acts as a liberating and inciting factor

26:06

unquote whether or not one wants to

26:08

claim wants to accept cash signs dubious

26:11

claim for the Liberatore nature of

26:14

feminine instinct his observation of the

26:16

importance of women in the Sabatini

26:18

movement was spot on as utter Rappaport

26:21

Albert's book on the subject has

26:23

demonstrated other authors exploited the

26:28

erotic possibility possibilities of

26:31

shoved eyes marriages to the hilt

26:33

Israel's anvils 1898 anthology dreamers

26:38

of the ghetto contains a long chapter on

26:40

the quote Turkish Messiah among other

26:44

fictional and factual tales of marginal

26:47

Jews of the young chap tights VIII he

26:51

writes quote obediently marrying the

26:55

maiden provided by his father the young

26:57

ascetic passionately denied himself to

27:00

the passion ripened precociously by the

27:02

Eastern Sun and the marveling bait Dean

27:05

released the virgin from her nominal

27:07

husband prayer and self-mortification

27:10

were the pleasures of his youth the

27:13

enchanting Jewesses of smyrna

27:15

picturesque and baggy trousers and open

27:18

neck vests had no seduction for him

27:20

although no Muslim veil hid their

27:23

piquant countenances as with the Turkish

27:26

women though no prescription silenced

27:29

their sweet voices in this Samedi of the

27:31

table as among the sin fearing

27:33

congregations of the West unquote

27:36

purple prose the Orient is the

27:39

sun-drenched land of sensuality and

27:41

liberation the Jewish woman's seductive

27:44

and available unlike either the Muslims

27:46

or the women of the Western Jewish

27:48

communities Shabtai denies him

27:51

these pleasures but his asceticism is

27:53

itself a passionate denial of the

27:56

passions Sara comes to free him from his

27:59

self-abnegation quote she was clad in

28:02

shimmering white Italian silk which

28:04

great tightly about her bosom showed her

28:07

as some gleaming statue her eyes had

28:09

strange depths of passion perfumes

28:12

breathe from her skin not thus came the

28:15

maidens of Israel to wedlock demure

28:18

spotless spiritless was shorn hair

28:20

priestesses of the ritual of the home

28:22

unquote

28:23

now dreamers of the ghetto was zangoose

28:26

attempt to work out a Jewish identity on

28:28

the margins by identifying with other

28:30

heterodox Jews within a few years he was

28:34

to become engaged to and marry a

28:35

non-jewish woman an act returned earned

28:38

him a program the opprobrium of a number

28:41

of his friends in Jewish and Zionist

28:43

circles

28:44

perhaps shab tights feasts struggle

28:46

between ascetic purity and Judaism on

28:49

the one hand a neurotic worldliness and

28:51

apostasy on the other was a projection

28:53

of zangoose own inner struggles in this

28:57

light it is no surprise that he invested

29:00

his account of cheb tights fee was such

29:02

melodramatic sensuality in romance a

29:05

tale of the passionate Orient

29:07

far removed from the straight-laced Jews

29:10

of late 19th century England perhaps the

29:14

most bizarre instance of erotic

29:16

exploitation of shot Davies biography is

29:19

a novella written in 1874 by Leopold von

29:23

Schaack soccer muscle best known as the

29:26

author of the sadomasochistic work of

29:28

pornography venus in furs the sexologist

29:32

richard craft a being invented the term

29:34

masochism from Saaremaa socks named

29:36

justice he invented sadism from the

29:39

Marquis de Sade saaremaa sock was both a

29:42

pornographer at least in 1920 century

29:44

terms and a writer of yet Augustine that

29:47

is romanticized tales of the ghetto

29:50

he lived in Galicia in the the area of

29:54

the austro-hungarian Empire where one

29:57

could actually see the Jews of the

30:00

ghetto so to speak sarcoma subtypes fee

30:03

is a fast

30:04

reworking of the shop dicey story for

30:06

modern purpose purposes drawing on

30:09

earlier literature sahaba soap suggests

30:12

the chub tide deliberately chose

30:13

beautiful wives to put his asceticism to

30:16

the test and he embellishes on the

30:18

erotic attempts of his two first wives

30:21

named her Sarah and Hannah to seduce the

30:24

young Kabbalist it is with the third

30:26

wife named mistakenly but as we'll see I

30:29

think intentionally Miriam that saw for

30:32

myself interjects his own sexual

30:35

inclinations unlike the previous wives

30:39

Miriam's tactic is to forbid her husband

30:41

to touch her rather than to seduce him

30:44

as might be the case for any good

30:46

masochist this only inflames him

30:48

Miriam seized her task as converting

30:51

Shabtai from a saint into a man since

30:54

she no longer believes that he is the

30:55

Messiah to convince some of this she

30:58

must force him to sin claiming to be

31:01

overcome by the Spirit of God she leads

31:03

chub tight to the river and forces him

31:05

to bathe her in a remarkably erotic

31:08

scene she then takes him into a garden

31:10

where she binds a crown of thorns around

31:12

his head until he bleeds and then

31:15

proceeds to flagellate him at the thorn

31:17

branch after this sadomasochistic scene

31:21

miriam tells him quote I have made you a

31:24

man you st. chub tights fie you are not

31:26

the savior of Israel you are not the

31:29

Messiah unquote Shabtai then converts to

31:32

Islam and lives out his days as a Moslem

31:34

practicing the Jewish religion in secret

31:38

so clearly suffered myself mixes in his

31:41

own sexual proclivities here with a

31:43

religious allegory he regards subtext he

31:45

is deluded because of his sexual

31:47

asceticism

31:48

he must be transformed from an ascetic

31:51

Saint into a man and this can only be

31:53

accomplished by a domineering woman the

31:56

release of Shabtai sexuality which

31:58

symbolizes his return to humanity is

32:01

connected with sin conversion to Islam

32:04

but sham ties treatment also conjures up

32:06

associations with Christianity

32:08

particularly in the crown of thorns and

32:11

perhaps with the name Miriam not as the

32:14

mother of the Messiah but as his wife

32:16

for Sarma so Christ seems to represent

32:19

the incarnation of God in an inverted

32:22

sense the turning of religion into

32:25

worldliness from other writings it

32:28

appears that he tried to construct a

32:30

kind of secularized Christianity in

32:32

which redemption consists in accepting

32:35

and even rejoicing in the cruelties of

32:37

this world it is possible that he

32:40

intended the subtities story as an

32:42

allegory of the modern Jewish problem

32:45

Jews must give up their ostensibly

32:48

ascetic separatism in favor of his

32:51

vision of worldliness represented by

32:54

women in fact in many of sufferer

32:56

muscles getaway chieftain it is powerful

32:59

Jewish women who are the forces of

33:01

modernization and enlightenment since

33:05

this is a lecturer Evo it would only be

33:07

fitting to take as our last example

33:09

Shalom Asha's 1908 play Shabtai see the

33:14

intersection of eroticism interfaith

33:16

relations in the Orient in the play is

33:18

in many ways a repetition in Yiddish of

33:20

Zhuang Ville and of Zhang Ville and of

33:25

soccer macaques treatment of the subject

33:27

ashes play was never put on the stage

33:29

but it was included in the 1920s in his

33:33

Gazala to shiftin written only two years

33:36

after after the horrific pogroms of 1905

33:39

oh 6 in Russia and under the challenge

33:43

of Zionism as a solution to the crisis

33:45

of the Russian Jews are seems to have

33:48

been working through his own ideology of

33:50

redemption projected backward onto the

33:53

17th century his invocation of the

33:56

Kaminski massacres of 1648 49 in

33:59

particular sounds like a response to the

34:02

more recent depredations he has one of

34:05

his characters say that one searches in

34:08

vain for a sin for which the pogroms

34:11

were a punishment but this traditional

34:14

calculus is false because there is no

34:16

God and the Sabbat an acolyte Nehemia

34:19

Cohen draws the logical conclusion from

34:22

this theological black hole quote you

34:26

can redeem the world through mitzvot or

34:28

through transgression

34:29

through purity or through sin unquote

34:33

the first arguably represents orthodoxy

34:35

the second modern secularism ashes

34:39

admittedly mediocre melodrama

34:41

anticipates its authors later

34:43

preoccupation with Christianity which

34:45

would result in 1939 in the

34:47

controversial their monofin notes eros

34:50

in the 1908 play ashes subtypes fee is

34:54

announced in phrases reminiscent of the

34:57

Christian appropriation of the prophet

34:59

Isaiah quote the voice of God came to me

35:02

thus a son is born to mortify in the

35:05

city of Izmir in the east near the sea

35:07

and I have called him shall tights fie

35:10

unquote his comparison of Shabtai to

35:13

Jesus in the opening act is reinforced

35:15

later in the play by Schaap ties claim

35:18

that quote I have torn the human from my

35:21

heart and have become God unquote and

35:23

Sara statement that chub tie is a man

35:26

God formulations that have no basis in

35:29

Sabbatini and theology although they do

35:32

appear another 19th century imaginative

35:34

literature about subtypes fee for ash it

35:38

seems Sabbatini ISM was a 17th century

35:41

version of Jewish Christianity an

35:44

episode in Jewish history that might

35:46

perhaps make juice more understanding of

35:48

the Christian heresy for if as he

35:51

suggested his later novel about the life

35:53

of Jesus Judaism and Christianity differ

35:57

only in whether one believes that the

35:59

Messiah has already come then the

36:01

Sabbatini experience means that many

36:04

Jews also once believed in a historical

36:07

messiah as with soccer muscle chub tides

36:11

third wife is the key figure in the

36:14

plays dramatic trajectory he correctly

36:16

names her Sarah

36:17

and is aware of those historical

36:20

accounts according to which she was

36:22

forced to convert temporarily to

36:23

Christianity in ashes version though the

36:27

Cossack pogrom as' tried to force her to

36:30

eat pork kiss the cross and take the use

36:32

Eucharist but she resisted she refused

36:35

to worship the Christian Messiah and

36:37

waited instead from the Messiah who had

36:39

come from the east

36:41

shop ties prophet Nathan of Gaza

36:43

discovers her in a cloyse probably

36:46

meaning here a Christian cloister not a

36:49

close as it's known in Hassan ISM that

36:52

is as a study hall he then appears in a

36:56

graveyard that his nathan appears in a

36:58

graveyard with her where she proclaims

37:00

herself Schaub ties bride her role is

37:05

dished seduced Shabtai away from

37:06

ethereal asceticism and toward worldly

37:09

pleasures here it's like saw for myself

37:11

she says to him quote you were not a

37:14

servant from god's heaven but you were

37:16

instead a man god the earth was given to

37:18

man you can be man's ruler on earth

37:22

unquote shup dies first to rejected

37:25

wives significantly but wrongly named

37:27

Leah and Rachel refer to Sarah as the

37:31

black queen it is Sarah who attracts

37:33

followers to the movement by her eyes

37:35

her hair and her passion and she does so

37:38

precisely because she is human a quote

37:41

daughter of the earth but also as an

37:43

emissary of Satan she is she is the real

37:47

source of antinomianism in one speech

37:50

she castigates the torah as a set of

37:52

prohibitions given by foreign gods and

37:55

pleads with Shabtai to choose her as a

37:57

bride rather than the torah since she

38:01

shopped I married the Torah

38:03

if you didn't know that detail he

38:04

married the Torah and Hopa so she's

38:06

trying to wean him away from his

38:09

marriage to the Torah and should choose

38:12

her as his bride rather than the Torah

38:14

since she represents a Nietzschean

38:16

mixture of quote sin death repentance

38:19

resurrection anger and reconciliation

38:21

loneliness and companionship desire and

38:24

negation unquote she says quote I have

38:27

taped I have taken away the commandments

38:29

for you giving you over to transgression

38:32

Satan stands ready to serve you

38:34

unquote Sarah is depicted as oriental

38:37

promising Shabtai a paradise made of

38:40

Middle Eastern imagery drawn in part

38:43

from the language of the Song of Songs

38:44

in the end Shabtai has been irrevocably

38:48

contaminated by sarah's sensuality and

38:51

he surrenders to his humanity by

38:53

converting to his

38:54

the scene of his apostasy ends with the

38:57

Sultan promising him his most beautiful

39:00

beautiful slave girls as wives and so

39:03

the Orient triumphs like Xango ash ends

39:08

his play in ambiguity where does he

39:10

really stand on the choice between the

39:12

Torah and Sarah as the Messiah's bride

39:15

can Jewish messianism sustain the idea

39:18

of a man God without collapsing either

39:21

into antinomian sensuality or ascetic

39:24

spirituality the play gives no

39:26

definitive answers but it certainly

39:28

suggests how perilous the courses for

39:31

those jews who reject the strictures of

39:33

the law for a more worldly modern

39:36

existence represented here as elsewhere

39:38

by the sensuous Orient if indeed

39:42

sensuality is a sign of modernity then

39:45

the Orient here is pressed into an

39:47

unexpected role as the site of modern

39:49

virtues but shap tights fees failures

39:52

suggests that redemption will not come

39:54

out of the East nor out of the world of

39:56

tradition Sabbath e'en ISM represented

39:59

the furthest one could go with

40:00

traditional messianism modern secularism

40:03

would have to take over where religion

40:06

ended let us now return to where we

40:09

began with Garrett from Shola as we have

40:13

seen Sabbath Ian ISM was anything but a

40:15

forgotten chapter in Jewish history when

40:19

he made it the subject of his research

40:21

is any of this literature relevant to

40:23

understanding Sholem zuver the answer to

40:27

this question is related to right to

40:28

directly excuse me is related directly

40:30

to our discovery of Jewish Orientalism

40:33

as a central motif in modern treatments

40:36

of subtypes fee as his youth youthful

40:39

Diaries and letters suggests Sheldon was

40:41

obsessed with longings for the Orient

40:43

part of this longing came from Martin

40:46

boobers famous essay Judaism in the

40:48

Orient which exercised a powerful early

40:51

influence on the young Sholem but it

40:53

also stemmed from his disillusionment

40:55

with Germany fed in part by his

40:57

revulsion at German war fever as he

41:02

wrote in his diary in 1915 it is clear

41:06

that I would like to be away from here

41:07

that is away from Germany but would I

41:10

not like just as much to go to Arabia

41:12

Persia or China the Orient

41:15

I haven't me a great love for the Orient

41:17

and believe that Eric C sorry L can only

41:20

enjoy its a resurrection in conjunction

41:23

with the rest of the Orient but I also

41:24

believe that while I wish to journey to

41:26

the Orient I wish to live in Eretz

41:29

Israel and this is the difference if we

41:31

can draw conclusions from this passage

41:33

Shalom's early relation of the Orient

41:36

was marked by ambivalence the Orient

41:38

would be the site for Zionism to

41:40

establish itself outside of Europe but

41:42

Eretz Israel would nevertheless be

41:44

different how we might ask did this

41:46

difference plates about in his

41:49

historiography especially in his work on

41:51

Sabbath Ian's ISM on the face of it the

41:54

more obvious hallmarks of Orientalism

41:56

that we've discussed in the fiction and

41:58

popular histories about savety isms are

42:01

absent from Sheldon's work to take one

42:04

example he devoted relatively little

42:06

attention to the erotic side of

42:08

subtities biography especially by

42:10

contrast to the more popular writers

42:13

similarly the role of women as early

42:16

followers of Shep tights fee which as

42:18

we've seen in a number of accounts

42:20

failed to attract his interest the

42:23

Sabbatini movement remained for him

42:25

largely a male affair this one-sided

42:28

Focus corresponds to his more general

42:30

position on the role of women in Jewish

42:32

mysticism which he stated at the

42:34

beginning of his great book major trends

42:37

in Jewish mysticism quote the long

42:39

history of Jewish mysticism shows no

42:41

trace of feminine influence Kabbalah

42:44

therefore lacks the element of feminine

42:47

emotion which has played so large a part

42:49

in the development of non-jewish

42:51

mysticism but it has also remained

42:53

comparatively free from the dangers

42:56

entailed by the tendency towards

42:57

hysterical extravagance which followed

43:00

in the wake of this influence unquote

43:02

hard to read these words today if he

43:05

ostensibly effeminate qualities of

43:08

hysterical emotionalism and extravagance

43:11

are those commonly associated with the

43:12

Orient

43:13

Sholem seems determined to portray

43:16

Jewish mysticism as non oriental yet as

43:19

Gill an entire

43:20

persuasively argued such overtly anti

43:23

Orientalist statements may well conceal

43:26

a more subtle quite possibly unconscious

43:29

orientalist agenda in the field of

43:32

Kabbalistic historiography like others

43:34

who wrote on 70 anism Sholem focused on

43:37

the curious bouts of passivity which

43:40

subtypes fee exhibited explaining them

43:42

with the diagnosis of manic depression

43:44

yet how far is this modern clinical

43:47

language from the less clinical

43:49

hysterical extravagance

43:51

isn't this passivity exactly the kind of

43:54

quote effeminacy typically associated

43:56

with the Orient similarly shown

43:59

associated the degeneracy of the later

44:01

frankest movement with its explicitly

44:04

feminine theology which may explain his

44:07

surprising expressions of revulsion at

44:09

this 18th century byproduct of savety

44:13

anism one might extend this analysis

44:16

further shalem's interpretation of

44:18

Sabbatini ism as first and foremost a

44:20

mystical movement has been accepted as

44:23

virtually canonical yet as we've seen

44:26

it's possible to offer a political

44:28

interpretation in which the Kabbalistic

44:30

theology of the movement is no longer

44:32

primary according to the typical

44:34

Orientalist view the West is the realm

44:37

of politics and reason the east of

44:39

impotent mysticism and irrationalism by

44:42

attributing such weight to the mystical

44:44

and virtually ignoring the political

44:46

Sholem perhaps unwittingly painted a

44:48

portrait of seventeen ism that was

44:51

almost quintessentially Orientalist the

44:55

obvious response to this suggestion is

44:57

that for Sholem to label something

44:58

mystical was anything but negative and

45:01

he gave Sabbatini ism itself pride of

45:04

place in his dialectic of Jewish history

45:06

yet my hypothesis the shoulders reading

45:09

of 17 ISM may have involved Orientalism

45:12

ambivalence can help solve one of the

45:14

central tensions in his thought as his

45:17

well-known trollin was politically

45:19

active in the breech Shalom in the 1920s

45:21

in his polemic polemics against the

45:24

revisionist the right-wing Zionists who

45:26

repeatedly labeled these extreme

45:29

nationalists

45:30

latter-day sabatons he used almost

45:33

identical language at the end of his

45:35

life to describe the religious Zionist

45:37

of the Gousha mooning the settler

45:39

movement

45:40

how can one reconcile this positive

45:42

historiographical estimate of 17 s and

45:46

with this use of the term as a political

45:48

pejorative the answer it seems to me

45:50

lies in the ambivalence of a German Jew

45:52

who is at once attracted to and repelled

45:55

by the mysterious East Sholem famously

45:58

called Zionism a retreat back into

46:00

history and denied that it should have

46:02

anything to do with apocalyptic

46:04

messianism Zionism enter a turn to

46:07

politics and not to mysticism in this

46:10

respect for Sholem Zionism was

46:12

quintessentially a Western movement of

46:14

political rationality and pragmatism a

46:17

male movement if one wishes as opposed

46:19

to the female extravagance of the East

46:22

despite his efforts to purge Jewish

46:24

mysticism of the feminine element and

46:27

Sabatino ism of its female side is an

46:30

ease about their possible recurrence and

46:32

sighin ism demonstrates his anxiety in

46:35

confronting the ambiguities of the

46:37

Orient in this respect despite the

46:40

sophistication and airy addition of his

46:42

research on Sabbath Ian's ISM Shalom

46:44

remained in the same unit or en tellest

46:47

universe of discourse as the many

46:49

popular works on chopped I'd see that

46:51

proliferated early in the century the

46:54

Messianic movement out of the East

46:56

became the site for projection of the

46:58

struggles and anxieties of a generation

47:01

living between tradition and modernity

47:03

thank you

47:05

[Applause]

47:12

I'll take questions now

47:25

thank thank you so much that was

47:28

wonderful I mean yes hello hello yes

47:33

okay thank you guys

47:35

that's better I'm wondering you've dug

47:41

up so I got so to speak sorry I'm

47:45

wondering whether you're aware of

47:47

whether there was any written literature

47:49

coming out of the Sabatini moment or its

47:53

remnants itself in the centuries

47:56

subsequent to either from the Frankish

48:00

or from the done man

48:02

I'm aware that the done man had a rich

48:04

you know poetic liturgical tradition but

48:07

whether that was simply oral or whether

48:09

there were accounts of their Messiah

48:11

written oh yeah we're committed to

48:13

writing yeah so the Frankish literature

48:22

I think ends by the early 19th century I

48:25

don't think we have anything beyond that

48:27

and movement essentially dies out as a

48:29

movement there are you know some family

48:34

traditions of Frank ISM that are in

48:39

private papers as I understand it that

48:41

some of which Sholem actually saw with

48:46

respect to Donna

48:50

which means converts or as they call

48:53

them those ma meaning the believers

48:56

there you have a literature of as you

49:02

said of literature liturgical literature

49:05

hymns which are written there is a

49:10

wonderful young scholar named Hadar

49:13

Feldman who's has worked on these they

49:18

were not accessible to somebody like

49:20

Sholem because you need

49:21

it's a weird mixture of Ottoman Turkish

49:25

Ladino Hebrew it's a and its own thing

49:29

you know because this was a kind of a

49:31

subterranean movement and she's worked

49:34

on these and

49:36

you know it's it's very interesting and

49:39

then what happens is in the 19th century

49:42

the dunmer become pretty assimilated in

49:48

Ottoman Turkey and but they she's

49:52

actually proposed to do a study of some

49:54

of their journalistic writings who she

49:56

thinks that you can actually trace a an

49:59

ongoing identity there there's a a work

50:04

that I didn't mention in this in this

50:08

paper by a journalist who traveled in

50:12

the early 1920s in North Africa and the

50:16

Near East and he reports on going into a

50:20

dunmer synagogue mosque I guess you'd

50:23

call it I guess mosque would be the

50:25

better to work in I can't remember where

50:29

if he's if this is in Istanbul I think

50:32

it's in Istanbul I don't remember

50:33

exactly but and that's really

50:36

interesting because it means that we

50:38

have evidence into the 1920s anyway of

50:41

the continued existence of the dunmer

50:43

today they have utterly disappeared

50:48

although there are people who still

50:50

believe that they're there that they're

50:53

still operating in secret and I was once

50:57

a day in a conference on seventeen ISM

51:01

where some one of the speakers who

51:04

actually was not known to the organizers

51:06

but they thought he was a reputable

51:07

scholar but turns out he wasn't he gave

51:10

a talk about how he was taken you know

51:12

in a secret kind of journey to meet the

51:15

done men and they had to blindfold him

51:18

and and as he was giving this talk some

51:22

somebody the audience starts yelling at

51:24

him don't don't don't tell don't tell so

51:26

I mean it's sort of supported its

51:28

argument but nobody knows it's like this

51:30

kind of there's us somebody tried to

51:32

make a documentary film about the dolma

51:36

in present-day Turkey and once again it

51:41

was like you were going down the rabbit

51:43

holes you couldn't really find anything

51:44

so I don't think there's

51:46

written literature certainly in the

51:48

twentieth century and even what's there

51:51

in the in the nineteenth is I think

51:53

largely secularized versions of there

52:08

it's it was to remind maybe about the

52:16

anthropological film made 25 years ago

52:21

by omission yes right yeah that was

52:23

referring to that actually so this is

52:30

till you can you can watch it it's

52:34

called Susannah cause that means the

52:36

little car that that swims between the

52:42

waters between two waters

52:48

so the film is I think very interesting

52:53

to understand how the last generation of

52:57

people who know their roots as done may

53:01

are perceiving themselves it's also very

53:06

interesting to know that when we began

53:08

to work together

53:10

Michele Grossman and myself on a film

53:12

project on the frankest in Poland it was

53:17

already too late that means that we have

53:20

began interviews and that the climate in

53:28

Poland was already too much dominated by

53:34

a completist how do you say plot

53:36

theories conspiracy theories so it

53:41

became dangerous for the people who

53:44

appeared as

53:46

in Poland and Michelle was man used to

53:50

say now that if you would have to make a

53:53

film today on the Dan may in Turkey it

53:57

would not have been possible for because

54:00

of this intellectual atmosphere that has

54:05

so much degraded thank you

54:18

thanks that was great I was very struck

54:23

by the last few things you were saying

54:25

about show them's insights about Western

54:31

Zionism as Western and sort of EU Rada

54:33

sysm and Eastern which means like a

54:35

theme I've noticed those are both very

54:38

significant rallying tendencies nowadays

54:42

in terms of trying to mobilize different

54:45

kinds of organization in action I'm

54:48

wondering what you think are lessons

54:51

that can be learned from the from the

54:53

study and from the mythos around the

54:56

story about effective rallying of

54:59

movements nowadays in light of concerns

55:02

and the power of nationalism on one hand

55:04

and the eroticism on the other hand so I

55:07

want to try to make sure I understand

55:09

the question whether one what one can

55:13

learn about for the present-day from the

55:16

study of seventeen is about effective

55:18

versus because I think a lot of the word

55:20

people would reached on them was

55:21

cautionary example this is why you don't

55:23

have a messianic front and I'm wondering

55:26

if there's other lessons you feel there

55:29

are to learn about effective social

55:32

change and movements and what works and

55:35

what doesn't yeah well I'm not sure I

55:39

mean I I don't I don't show them himself

55:43

said you know I I mean historian not a

55:46

prophet so I can't really but I I think

55:50

that and and certainly the the context

55:54

in which Sabatino sin took place is so

55:57

remote from our present reality you know

56:02

that I mean they're they're no longer

56:06

these empires like the Ottoman Empire I

56:09

mean seventeen ism was operating within

56:12

the Ottoman context which which meant

56:14

that the possibility of creating a I

56:19

mean thinking about it as a political

56:21

movement the possibility that it could

56:24

have actually established a Jewish state

56:27

is sort of laughable within the Ottoman

56:31

context

56:32

say it took the collapse of the Ottoman

56:33

Empire to make it possible for Zionism

56:37

to ultimately succeed so the contexts

56:41

are so different now I mean Sholem I

56:44

think it was very concerned about the

56:48

tendon about apocalyptic tendencies

56:51

creating dangers for Jewish politics and

56:57

so his use of it for for that purpose

57:02

he's not exactly historical in other

57:05

words what happened and he sometimes

57:07

even admits that he says you know what

57:09

happened in the case I did an interview

57:12

with him just before the end of his life

57:14

and for the New York Review of Books and

57:18

you know I asked him about you know

57:22

would he characterize the goose ammonium

57:25

they settler movement visit here we're

57:27

talking about 19 1980 that was pretty

57:32

small young movement at that time of

57:34

course become much bigger and I asked

57:38

him whether he would apply the same

57:40

latter-day Sabbat Ian labeled that he

57:43

applied to the revisionists back in the

57:46

1920s and 30s he said yes he said but

57:51

the difference is that in the case of 17

57:53

ISM the the catastrophe was purely

57:57

spiritual in the case of modern-day

58:00

Israel the potential catastrophe is not

58:03

just spiritual so in other words he

58:06

understood that these are not entirely

58:09

commensurate movements but he he did

58:14

have this there's no question that he

58:16

had this this very complicated

58:18

relationship to the question of Jewish

58:21

messianism messianism is something that

58:23

is a dynamic force it drives Jewish

58:26

history forward but it is also extremely

58:28

dangerous force so I think he definitely

58:32

used it for that used as historical

58:35

studies for that kind of to make

58:37

kind of statement yeah I was doing work

58:44

on the Frankie's and Prague the point I

58:48

want to make is is it possible that

58:49

there was a mystical triangle prague

58:52

turin and lyon france that's where the

58:57

Silk Route was for the silk makers Jews

59:00

I'm thinking is it possible that there

59:03

was a an economic flow or was it always

59:07

an individual who would bring his ideas

59:10

perhaps what printing was is that a

59:13

possibility that sometimes it followed

59:15

that ground law wasn't always

59:17

individuals it was never a kind of a an

59:20

economic you know so I'm not a I'm not

59:27

an historian of 70 anism I mean I don't

59:30

claim to have you know expertise based

59:33

on my own research in this so I can't

59:38

really answer your question but I do

59:42

think that if I can step back from the

59:46

question for a moment and and show them

59:48

in his argument for how Sabbatini ISM

59:52

paves the way for modern Judaism you get

59:58

the impression that the especially the

60:01

Frankish the you know this is a mass

60:04

movement and when they enter into

60:07

European enlightenment they then

60:10

transform Judaism into you know

60:14

enlightenment reform secularism etc this

60:19

has been pretty disproven by others

60:23

especially by Yaakov Katz it goes back

60:26

quite a long time but I think though

60:29

that even if Shalom is right about those

60:31

individuals they were individuals it's

60:35

quite likely the the frankest movement

60:38

was not that big I mean we're not is

60:40

this is not like 19th century hafsat ISM

60:42

which is a mass movement it is a

60:44

movement of some hundreds of people

60:47

perhaps we don't even know exactly but

60:50

it is

60:50

actually quite small so it's fascinating

60:52

but can you in fact build a whole

60:54

historical argument on a few hundred

60:56

people probably not yes

61:03

yeah so I was surprised there was no

61:07

mention of Chabad Lubavitch messy

61:10

messianism there definitely where is the

61:13

question right back here okay back here

61:18

okay thank you thank you yeah it's hard

61:20

to see your wonderful speech and I read

61:23

that your biography biography and show

61:25

them the recent one was very good that

61:28

came out lately

61:29

I was surprised he didn't mention

61:31

anything about labovick and Ichabod

61:33

because they 24-hour years after the

61:39

Rebbe his death there's still large

61:42

segments I grew up in about mm-hmm so

61:44

large segment of the community still

61:46

believe he's alive there's a very

61:51

complicated process also the way the

61:55

Rebbe dealt you know which women was

61:58

very unusual for a Hasidic leader

62:00

speaking to women hundreds of women no

62:04

other Rebbe ever did it you know what

62:06

I'm referring right so how does that

62:09

where do we how did that fit in well it

62:12

doesn't fit in that is all that's very

62:15

interesting and we treated in our book

62:18

hostages of a new history in in quite a

62:22

bit of detail but doesn't fit in because

62:25

the my subject specifically was the

62:29

after lives of shut I see now I have not

62:31

studied the Rebbe to see whether he ever

62:33

alludes to shove tights for you I would

62:35

be very surprised if he does the sources

62:39

of Habad messianism are completely

62:41

different from what I was discussing

62:45

here they are Habad traditions that go

62:50

back at least to probably the fifth

62:55

rubbish

62:56

Sheldon do bear Schneerson certainly to

63:00

the sixth

63:02

so these are specific traditions in this

63:05

respect Habad is different from other

63:07

Hasidic groups which typically do not

63:10

have the same kind of messianic you know

63:15

dimension

63:18

you're quite right about the status

63:20

women and in the case of the remedy the

63:25

giving women this this role was actually

63:29

a part of the Messianic sort of playbook

63:35

so all that's true it's not my subject

63:38

here but be happy to discuss it with you

63:40

in a context of a different lecture

63:49

hey thank you really interesting talk

63:54

it's working okay we get her here yeah

63:57

okay you hear me good okay I was just

64:00

curious I know you talked you think at

64:02

the end you talked about Sean's view of

64:05

the frankest

64:05

and I was wondering if there's any

64:07

parallel kind of Western literature

64:09

talking about Franca's or were they like

64:11

too close because they were European

64:13

rather than rather than oriental and but

64:16

in some ways they were they had more

64:19

political path towards the I'm not aware

64:23

of

64:24

yeah I'm not aware of any of this

64:25

imaginative sort of literature of the

64:28

kind that I discussed that discusses

64:30

Frank ISM I it's alluded to occasionally

64:34

I it's not clear to me why that is I

64:40

mean the frankest

64:41

story is an amazing story and actually I

64:45

mean show them in some ways tries to you

64:47

know pour cold water on it by if you go

64:50

back to that essay in 1937 redemption

64:53

through sin when he gets to Frank Oz I

64:55

mean he just you know abandons the

64:58

objective tone that he's taken for you

65:01

know 25 pages before and he heaps the

65:04

program on them on Jacob Frank as you

65:07

know a tyrant and demonic figure

65:10

etcetera etc and it's only recently

65:14

actually that that we're beginning to be

65:17

aware of the fact that that he needs to

65:20

be pretty much worse much more seriously

65:22

and and there's a fantastic polish

65:27

Polish Jewish Israeli American historian

65:32

named Pavel Machiko who's now at Johns

65:34

Hopkins who wrote a spectacular

65:37

biography of Jacob Frank

65:44

yeah I know that Jay's working on that

65:47

but I mean Jays busy with other things

65:49

but we read a Pavel's book it's

65:54

fantastic and Pavel also a he edited a

66:00

small volume published by Brandeis

66:03

University Press which are Sabbath Ian's

66:06

texts and texts in the nineteenth

66:09

century including the sufferer myself

66:10

text he publishes some of these sort of

66:13

later texts about seventeen ISM and his

66:16

introduction there is to my mind the

66:19

most important thing written on Sabbath

66:20

Ian ISM since Sholem 1937 essay and he

66:23

completely revolutionizes how we think

66:26

about it

66:26

he takes it away from the history of

66:28

messianism so it's not the myth that's

66:31

not really exactly what it's about

66:34

Frank has a kind of Universalist view in

66:38

which all religions somehow are united

66:42

it's it's really quite fascinating and I

66:45

think that that's moved us away from

66:47

this kind of very negative view of you

66:50

know the frankish they they had orgies

66:53

then they you know they they engage in a

66:56

blood libel against the rest of the Jews

66:58

and converted to Catholicism and we

67:00

shouldn't say more about them I think

67:02

now we're able to say more about them I

67:05

think we have time for one more question

67:12

are you talking about shop toys feet yes

67:19

yes that okay so that is really

67:23

interesting did he see himself as a

67:27

prophet I'm not sure how he saw himself

67:31

but certainly his there were some among

67:35

his followers including Nathan of Gaza

67:37

who definitely you know take on a

67:40

prophetic aura and interestingly enough

67:43

a lot of women so there were a lot of

67:47

women who prophesied the coming of

67:50

Shabtai see they were going to

67:52

synagogues and prophesy and there would

67:55

be a big commotion you know and they'd

67:57

be so and and here I directed this book

68:02

by Otto Rappaport Albert on women and

68:04

the setting and movement which is really

68:07

eye-opening because we we discover there

68:09

things that are actually sort of hidden

68:12

in plain sight because if you read the

68:14

sources you see right off how important

68:17

women are to this movement but trollin

68:20

ignores that because that doesn't fit

68:22

into his view of the role of women and

68:24

Jewish mysticism but Trump actually

68:27

definitely is seen as a kind of prophet

68:30

and his followers engage in prophecy and

68:33

and yes you're right that that is I mean

68:36

what she shows in her book is that this

68:38

idea of prophecy actually predates the

68:40

17 movement their women prophets earlier

68:42

so there is something going on starting

68:45

already

68:46

in 15th century Spain and then extending

68:49

it you know to the 17th century in which

68:54

the possibility of prophecy suddenly

68:57

becomes real for for people so audre

69:04

Rapoport Albert women and the 17

69:07

movement now please join me in thanking

69:11

David again

69:12

like to see you back here soon

69:14

[Applause]

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